How Animation Technology is Changing Marketing and Sales

Welcome to the Oil and Gas Sales and Marketing podcast, where every week, your hosts, Mark LaCour and Matt Bertram share proven strategies and real-world tactics to help you connect with customers and close more deals. Let's do this. Hey, welcome back, everybody, to the Sales and Marketing podcast.

And yes, we have heard you. Matt and I have skipped some episodes. Actually, we skipped more than a month, so apologies to the audience out there. We're just busy. Some things are going to be changed in the show.

We'll continue, I promise, with the great content. And speaking of continuing with great content, I have Peter and Jonathan on the mic with me. How are you all doing today, guys? Fantastic, sir. How are you? Doing well.

We've known each other for a very long time. Both of y'all work for a company that does some really cool stuff. But because this is the Sales and Marketing podcast, we're not going to talk too much about LIDAR and digital twins and the ability to do all the other business stuff you all are able to do. We're going to talk about it from a marketing and sales point of view.

So I'm going to open up the floor. Either one of y'all jump in. What is the name of the company and what the hell do y'all do? So the name of the company is VSCO. We are a visualization company. And so we specialize in creating unique visualizations

for all of our clients, from films to animations, interactive presentations, and digital twins. So that is kind of our core. Yeah, and Peter's minimizing what they do. If you see what they do, it is amazing. I don't care if you're building, if you want to demonstrate

what the inside of a ethylene cracker looks like. I don't care if you want to demonstrate how your F1 car has better aerodynamics than anybody else. I don't care if you want to talk about through tubing services and you want your clients to be able to visualize it. These guys make it happen.

And y'all make it happen in a kind of a fun, exciting way. I don't know what the magic dust is. Y'all sprinkle everything you do. But it's not the same boring old graphics. It's something at a different level. The tears of animators.

Yeah, it's not far off, to be honest. A little blood, sweat, and tears. I remember some of the days back in the day when I used to do animations and how stressed and how many hours we were putting into those animations. I think it just came down to like, for me personally,

I never wanted to give out anything that I wasn't proud of myself. Even if I didn't like the story I was telling, I waited the visuals to be good. Because some of the stories we don't have control over. It's like a product animation.

So you want to tell that product's story as it were. And it still comes out great. But we would put a lot of sleepless nights into them. So. Peter, you brought up something interesting that I didn't even think of.

So y'all both been doing this for a long time. You've been doing it for a while. The actual tool sets of doing animations have changed dramatically in the last couple of years. And so a lot of our audience are chief marketing officers, chief sales officers, VPs of sales,

Visa marketing, and oil and gas. And they're probably thinking I'm talking about static images on a magazine page, right? That is not what we're talking about now. Can you kind of real quick kind of go through the history of how it started, what it used to be,

and then kind of layer the technology on top now? Because that new layer of technology allows you to explain things visually so much better than it used to be. I'll tell you, like back in the day, I remember when 3DS, you know,

the stuff we used to use was 3DS Max, where you had to kind of script it in. I thankfully came in when there was a good interface already put in place, thankfully. But yeah, no, we, I mean, we do some illustrations as well, but like the illustration behind me,

that we typically use on any kind of video. An audience that doesn't, it's not... Yeah, isn't gonna see it. Yeah, that looks like a subsea tree that's actually being lowered to the bottom of the ocean floor. And so, yeah, both, at least myself, I have,

oh goodness, about 20, 23 years doing animation, or at least 3D, and then 15 of those within, you know, industrial kind of area, from oil and gas to kind of chemical, even a little bit of medical in there, just to make it like pop a little bit.

But yeah, no, the technology's changed a lot since I started, where you had to, a lot of like the FX we would do was built out from the ground up. Now there's tools there that do a lot of that work for you.

Jonathan has used it more recently than I have. So he probably can talk a little bit more about how the technology's a lot better now. So I'm gonna give it over to Jonathan. It's a great point. And yeah, I started doing animations 25 years ago

with 3D Studio Max 2.5. 2.5. And they're now on iteration, like, oh goodness, I don't even know what it would be, 30 probably, but they started iterating differently. Anyway, yeah, the tech is infinitely easier to use

than it used to be. And like most softwares where there's content creators creating assets of some sort that could, like a final product is a 3D render or a video. All of those different softwares used to be obscenely unreliable.

You had to have a practice of always saving your work constantly because they would crash on any software that you would use. And that's kind of because everybody likes to push themselves to the limit in what they can actually put out.

So every time they're trying to max out the capabilities of the software and the hardware that they're using. So it's a lot more reliable now, but that same pushing the limit factor has come into play. So there's a lot more beautiful content because so many systems are automated, like Peter said,

where you used to have to manually keyframe and draw in all sorts of smoke and graphics that are now you can kind of run a simulation for. So the content is much nicer looking, but now you're saying, okay, well, I'm not rendering it in 720 PM, we're rendering it in 4K.

And the computer still takes just as long to render the same effect as it used to. And you're just constantly trying to put out the better and better and better product all the time. Dude, I remember when I had to buy a new computer and spend a lot of money to edit 720 video,

and it was slow. And now my newest Mac I bought, and I didn't buy the top line, but I just wanted to test it. And I opened four 4K videos at the same time, and it digested without even hesitating, right? It's amazing where we've come so far.

But the thing I think y'all do really well, and so I want to talk about the technology because I wanted listeners to understand this wasn't just the standard static images type of stuff, but it's a step above 3D. But what y'all do is y'all add to the ability

to tell the story. And whether that story is explaining to a customer how your product or solution helps them solve a problem, or explaining to them why partnering with your company, I don't mean Vizio company, but if somebody would hire y'all,

it just makes it so much easier, quicker to understand, especially in our industry where things are complex to explain, to have the visuals that are moving, that are in perfect proportions that show it from different angles,

it just makes it amazingly quick to grasp what that story is. I think it's also due to the fact that a lot of us have spent time in those industries, and so when we're talking to people, we understand what they're talking about

straight off the bat. And instead of having to spend a little time understanding what they're talking about, there are a few products we've came across where it's like, this is completely new technology, you're gonna have to sit us down

and spoon feed it to us. But we understand the concept of what it's trying to solve, but they want a product animation where it explains how it solves it. And that's when we need a little bit more time with them. But in general, yeah,

we're all about visual storytelling. And so, because there's two ways of telling a story, you can have like text, or audio kind of explaining, as in like an explainer video,

and you have the visuals there to support it. But typically we want the visuals to be able to support themselves so they can run in the background and tell the exact story the client needs to tell,

whether it be from marketing to sell their product, or just to sell internally in regards to, this is our new product, we're really excited about this, we want you to be excited about so that we can push it to the market kind of thing.

Or even unlike on the larger scale, having interactive presentations where we're kind of showing all of their products and how they work in one interactive kind of space, with visuals kind of supporting that I say, as a sales tool or a marketing tool,

but it just works for them in terms of, they have everything in one application, and for them it's just easy to use, for us it takes a bit of time to put together, but we've got a lot of, we've had a lot of good workflows

that we've built over the past 30 years in the company. So, yeah. Well, it's your industry expertise that shows the difference. Besides the technology, the fact you'll have so much experience,

you know, I keep looking at that tree that's sitting behind you, and we'll probably grab a screenshot of this so that the visitors, the listeners are listening, I don't know if you can see them talking about it. So, that tree that's sitting behind you,

it tells a story to people in those subsea trees, right? So, I see all the jacks where they can attach hydraulics to do different processes in that tree. I see the things that are painted orange, which is what's the ROV is allowed to grab a hold of, right?

And all that stuff, is it something that the software put in there, that's your knowledge of the industry, that's your knowledge of the subsea world, knowing that those things are what's on a tree, right? So, I mean, even time from conception

to being able to deliver the story, in this case, if this was, you know, let's see, TechnicBefMC or any of the other subsea manufacturers, the fact that you knew that should be orange, the fact that you show the hydraulic connectors, that just allows you to hurry up and deliver to them

the finished product in a way that helps them sell and market their stuff. And that can't be overrated. I've hired a lot of marketing companies at OGG and over the years, we've been around for a long time, and they don't understand our industry.

And so, I ended up spending more time doing what I would call one-on-one education, which then increases the cost, because of course, I'm paying them to learn about our industry. And in your case, at least for the tree behind you, y'all know what the hell you're doing.

Yeah, absolutely. We spent a lot of time working. Like, I remember with the first project I worked on with Visco, we had, and it was more on the digital twin side, but it was with one client,

and I ended up knowing their platform, which they were still building and they started constructing at a time better than most of the engineers did. I love it. It was just because I wasn't trying to correct them,

but there were things that they had forgotten, and I was like, well, this thing's still there, and they were like, oh, yeah. So, it's, we spend a lot of time learning it because we want to know it as well as, you know, the engineers know it,

because we tell a better story that way, so. I'm glad you touched the digital twin thing. So, it's a word that's been probably overused a little bit by the vendors. However, from a business process, if you don't know what a digital twin,

and basically it's a recreation of a physical asset in 3D space, and the advantage of that means that you can train, you can plan, you can look at doing additions in the virtual world instead of the costs and the risk of life or assets in the real world,

and I love that, but the reason I wanted to bring that part of the digital twin up is I want the people that are listening, the marketers and the sales leaders are listening, to understand that when I'm talking about graphics, we're talking about to the point

where it's down to the millimeter if you need it that way, that it's an exact match, that you could actually take measurements off of y'all's graphics and replace a pump and it would drop right in. That's not the usual graphic artist, right?

This is more of like something an engineer would do. However, y'all have social skills and you understand storytelling, and I'm gonna get hate mail from engineers on that, right? It's that combination of two skill sets which usually aren't joined together,

that engineering expertise, that ability to recreate something down to the millimeter if you need it that way, and at the same time, understanding how somebody else may perceive that and how you may be able to help them tell that story

with your 3D renderings. I just, I think it's beautiful. I don't know any other company in the world that's doing what y'all are doing. Well, thank you. I mean, I will take that as a high compliment.

We have definitely, we used our expertise from like the visual creation side and wanted to use kind of an artistic touch to creating something that was going to be highly technical because our kind of concept of a digital twin, and I agree with you again,

it's very saturated at this point, but it should be a complete replica of what you have out in the field, whether it be just a refinery or if it's a topside installation with subsea infrastructure,

all of it should be in there with down to the formations in our opinion because everyone would then have use of it. And then you can connect up any kind of data to that, but our core thing was it should always be about the end users,

because we know it's going to provide value to, you know, the sea level man, you know, the top level management and executives, et cetera, and to a company as a whole. But in order to do that, the users had to be very much be able to use the software

and be able to get use out of it. And a lot of them aren't always engineers. We wanted the people that were, you know, offshore, you know, the field workers to be able to use it. And with that, we wanted to have something that appeals to them as well as the engineers.

So from an engineering level, it covers all of their bases, but also from a field engineer, you know, someone who's out in the field, it's extremely simple for them to use and it shows them where to go, for instance,

if they have an inspection point or something they're going to go inspect or perform maintenance on, it helps them. And it gives them a visual kind of interface or not interface, but visually shows them what they're going to be doing,

how to get there, where the points are and makes it easy for them to put their findings in. So that's kind of think the highlighting points and if you want to add to what was saying there, Jonathan, but yeah. No, that's it.

Exactly. It's that we've been doing 3D animations as a company for 30 years now. And a lot of the people that work in there have had as much 3D visualization experiences, Peter and I, if not a good chunk of them.

And we've always been first and foremost about making a product that looks as realistic as possible unless it's technically oriented or if it's technical as high quality as possible to deliver the best possible outcome of the end user or viewer understanding what they're seeing

and also enjoying it visually. Because the more they enjoy it visually, the more likely they are to actually understand it and pay attention. And we've been able to translate that into the more complicated softwares that we sell,

like the VCOG digital twin and put an emphasis from that background of making it visually presentable and understandable from the UX all the way to how it actually presents when you're looking at it. So that when a technician looks at this,

they're not gonna be looking at a digital twin that's just a bunch of CAD drawings. It's actually as close to realistic as possible. And it's in the way you're perceiving it so that you can better perform the job at hand while also still having overlays

to get to more technical X-ray vision views and whatnot. And it's still all tied to the actual CAD database and all the different isometrics and the SAS solutions. It's all integrated to where anybody can use it from top to bottom and get a lot of value out of it. Yeah, as much as I try to keep you

on the sales and marketing track, you'll keep it just forever. No, it's fine. We need to get you on our upstream so our digital doers show and talk about the actual tech. But I want to kind of pull you back

to the marketing side of this. I know a lot of companies use you to help with their marketing efforts. So at a high level, when I look at this from a marketing point of view, the first word that pops in my head is clarity.

It makes it easy to show what you're talking about. And to your point of talking to C-level execs, if you're a company that sells to the executive team, you know this, you know you have one minute, maybe three to get their attentions in a conversation. And if you don't, you've lost them

and you may not be able to get another chance to come talk to them. What y'all do allows you to tell the story in that one minute, actually in a few seconds, right? Because it's just so clear. So let's talk a little bit.

If a company is listening to this and they sell something complex and y'all's 3D renderings would help their sales teams explain what you do easy, especially to executives. You have a couple of minutes. What would happen?

So if they called your company, Jonathan or you, Peter, and said, hey, we're company X and we have this problem, what would be the process you want to follow internally to help their marketing efforts? It's a really great question.

First, establish what they want to achieve with their marketing. I think that's probably the first step. The second step is setting out a storyboard, assigning someone who's gonna be assigned to their particular project from start to finish.

So let me stop you there. So you assign basically like a project manager to the client so they can get to know them, the culture, all that sort of stuff. Gotcha. And sometimes we have our key account person

kind of follow it along as a word, but we always have one project manager for more of the kind of technical details. Because obviously, no, me and Jonathan can't always get stuck in the details as much as we would love to now.

You know, we have teams and everything kind of falls into place that way. But we have a very stringent process after that. As soon as we have a storyboard kind of established, it's very much, okay, we're gonna do a pre-production.

That's it, sorry. Pre-production, yes. Yes. So we have pre-production first, which is establishing the story, kind of setting the tone, looking feel,

making sure we have, create something that's within their kind of brand. That's really important. And then we will create, as Jonathan said, a animatic that will be the kind of starting point for them to go have a look at,

come with any feedback, comments about the actual animation. Otherwise, at this point, also get a couple of stills of what the looking feels gonna look like. And then once the animatic is approved,

we'll put it to post-production, which we'll be rendering and then editing it. And sometimes we'll end up sending one more kind of copy of it as a draft version, just to get it all approved. And once that's approved,

you know, we lock that in then. So, okay, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna put it through editing, possibly one or two like post kind of edit renders. And then that's it knocked out. But we typically have a pretty quick process

from start to finish within a couple of weeks, depending on how big the film should be. I watched a video y'all did, and it was a robotic arm. Looks like a robotic arm, maybe using automobile manufacturing.

And it was done so well, I could count the sides of the heads of the bolts. And it looked like it was video that you shot in a manufacturing silly, not created in, you know, in the virtual world. It was so real looking,

and it was so detailed, and it moved naturally. Even the little part where when a robotic arm moves, right, when it stops, it slows down a second, somehow y'all captured that too. It was just an amazing type of work. Is that quality of work something y'all always do,

or did what I see, was that a special high-end project? No, I think for the animation side of things, we're always pretty much on point in making sure that it's as accurate as possible. We do have varying degrees of the render quality, because sometimes, if it's a really technical animation,

and it's very kind of focused on a particular product, then we'll want to highlight that product more than everything else in the scene, or everything else you're gonna see, so that it pops, basically. And then we tell that story to a large degree.

A good example is hopefully you can use this image that Peter has in the background. That's actually almost two different render styles that we do, or quality styles. It's much quicker to render the very non-realistic version on the right-hand side,

but then the high, high, high quality, almost photorealistic. It looks like you took a photo of a subsea tree from an ROV. That is gonna take a little bit more time to develop and create a much more nuanced view, and a more realistic view.

So it just depends on what the client wants to represent in the final product. So when you do all this work for a client, and let's say you did everything they asked for, they were happy, they closed the deal, paid you, all that sort of stuff,

and then they come back a month later and they wanna tweak it. I'm guessing because it's all virtual, it's not that big a deal to go in and make some additions or some changes or change a color or something. So I think that would, from a marking point of view,

once you've invested time and effort and resources into working with y'all, using it in the future probably is much easier than the original creation. Oh, without a doubt, no question there. It depends on the level of change,

like let's say they wanna replace the whole tree that's in every shot of the scene, and then it might require quite a bit of work, but if they wanna just replace one part or change one color much faster, if they wanna change text, it's practically instant.

Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking with all the mergers and acquisitions. Imagine putting all this work and having these 3D renderings and somebody buys you, now you gotta change the logo. And in y'all's world,

that would probably be a very simple thing for y'all to fix. Yeah, we've came across that a few times. Just a few at this point, yeah. So when I'm thinking about this from a marking point of view, we talked about storytelling, talked about clarity, talked about making it quick and easy for people

and executives to understand what you're talking about. What do y'all deliver to the client? Does it range a gauntlet? So let's say you had a client that doesn't have an in-house video crew. I mean, can y'all turn Key a full video for them

or do y'all just do the special effects and the 3D renderings? So we can do real video as well. We don't do it as much as we used to. We used to have some guys we had in-house that would do real-time video or go out and record

because they had all their certificates and order and whatnot. And I think it's still, I think we've still got at least one or two guys that can do that. But sometimes we'll hire near the locations cut costs.

Because then today we wanna make sure that three, one delivered good products, but two also deliver it within a budget that's reasonable. So yeah, it's still something we do. It's still, we'll still provide a turn Key solution if there isn't any video present from the internally

of it by inside the customer or client, if you will. So I'm guessing that when that initial engagement happens and you go to assign a project manager, you start thinking about storing boards, you start fleshing out what is the client actually, what is the indeliverable supposed to look like?

And then you all just figure out how to make it happen. I think, so funny enough, I did have a story around this. So there was one client we worked for. I'm not gonna say who it was, cause we still work for them. But they asked us to do basically a company profile video.

And let's just, I'm not gonna say what the product is cause it's pretty much, you'll know who it is straight off the bat. But let's just say it's not the most exciting product. It does its job and it's really cool, but it's like watching paint dry.

And so, but they wanted us to do something exciting with it and tell their kind of company profile. And so they also want to use real footage. But what we ended up doing was using a lot of footage that we bought online, cause it made it a little bit cheaper, put some effects to it.

And I really, what I would call an epic voice or trailer voice like you'd have in movie trailers. And it just, it just added an element of drama to it. And so it ended up being one of our best videos that we put together and it was really well received. But yeah.

I'm glad you brought that up because that is the essence of storytelling is capturing everything. So not just the video, not just the special effects, but we did the same thing. We messed up on our HSD podcast.

The first voiceover we hired this guy, it mimic James Earl Jones at that very dramatic, big, huge theater release. And it was sounded amazing. But then it set you up for the podcast and she thought really bad stuff was gonna happen

because it's, which is not our intent of the podcast. So we didn't do a good job with doing the storytelling. The voiceover was amazing, but it drove the wrong emotions. And what I love about what you just said is that y'all think about all of that,

even the emotional response that you want to elicit into the persons that's viewing your work, you understand that, right? What are the missing pieces of storytelling? This is, guys, this is great. So I love the customer story.

Tell me a customer story, and we don't have a lot of time to get close in, but tell me a customer story where they came in and maybe they didn't have a huge budget and maybe they didn't know how to best tell their story and y'all stepped in and y'all helped them, right?

And you did something to help them get their messaging across and they came back and go, this was wonderful. Yeah, I was thinking, oh, that's us. We can't tell our own story. And as I said to you before,

the podcast is the one thing we struggle with, it's like, you know, we're really great at marketing for other companies, just not ourselves. Like, we struggle actually to put videos together for ourselves, because we're so perfectionist around it

that it ends up taking forever. That's the worst trait. I, one of my, actually y'all know Page, hosting the leadership leaders podcast. In the very beginning, all of my hosts had to edit their own audio

because we just didn't have any money, right? And then as we grew, we're able to hire people and grow and grow and eventually we had an editing team and producers and everything else. And I caught her one time re-editing the audio that we just paid an editing team to edit

because she's a perfectionist. And I had to go, this is utterly ridiculous. It just needs to go out. It's already done well, it doesn't have to be perfect. So I get what you're saying. I could imagine internally y'all look

for every little blemish, every little miss key frame, every little, yeah, no, just get it out there. We're just all about making it. And everybody in our company is great at what they do. So we can spot that kind of shit. Pardon my language, sorry.

It's okay. Very easily. We can spot that kind of stuff very easily. So everyone is also not only their worst critic, but they're their own worst internal critic. We're a Norwegian company too.

And except for Peter and I, we're the American component, the vast majority of the 100 plus people are in Norway and Europe. And they can be very blunt more so than maybe I'm used to. And it can get very, very serious discussion wise

about what's wrong with our internal stuff and how we need to keep tweaking it in perpetuity. Well, it's not quite there yet. It's not quite there yet. And we don't need to talk about the consensus culture in Norway.

That drives me crazy where everybody has, so you can't talk about it cause it's your company, but I can talk about it cause it's not my company. But that drives me crazy sometimes where everybody has to agree before they move forward. However, when they finally do agree,

it's A plus work, like whatever it is, it just takes forever. But let's go back real quick cause we're running out of time. Customer story, somebody comes in, they're not a huge client, they need some help. Y'all did some work and they come back and go, wow.

Tell me one of those. So we have had one or two where their budgets have been extremely small to the point where, we're not gonna make any money off it, but we'll make a deal with like, hey, if we're allowed to just put our logo at the end,

just to say that we made it, cause typically we just use them in our own kind of marketing campaigns online. And they were like, sure, that's golden. And so, we'll still put the same amount of effort in and it doesn't matter what the budget is,

we will make sure we try and tell the story as correctly as possible, or as visually and emotionally telling as possible. Yeah, audience, do not reach out to Jonathan and Peter and say, if you put my, I'll let you put your logo on. Yeah, don't do that.

That is not, they're not gonna do that. They've done it once or twice to be nice, to help somebody else. That is not how they're gonna sell to you. The work they do costs them internally money and you have to pay for quality work, bottom line.

But I love the fact that y'all did that. That was a nice little trade. Y'all actually did the right thing, even though you didn't necessarily make margin on it. They'd helped us once or twice with a few things and it wasn't like anything big.

And so, it just seemed like a no brainer. To kind of give them a hand with like, hey, let's help you out. We have some spare time at the moment, because there are times of the year where there's dead periods, like right after like huge conferences, for instance,

where they, you know, that's what's pretty typical is they'll come to us like two weeks before a conference. We need an animation that's gonna take six weeks in two weeks from now. And we're like, thank you, that is great. We will lose sleep for two weeks

and try and get this done for you as much as we can. We get those two at times. And it's, we've probably got to a point now where we tell people, no, we didn't for a long time, but it's just not worth the stress on my team. And guys, I could talk to y'all for hours,

we're running over time, a couple of things. So, we need to pay the bills, you know, about the two newsletters audience, sorry that the Sunday update didn't go out for a while, have an entirely new marketing team, Daniel's running out, he's doing a great job,

but there's a transition period. Those newsletters are going out. So, go ahead and sign up for the All-I-Guess events newsletter. You wanna know about all the conference and trade shows, it's absolutely free, the links in the show notes. Same way with our Sunday update,

speak out of visualizations, Peter, Jonathan. My marketing team keeps sticking my face in other people's bodies and it's weird, but the audiences love it. The Taylor Swift one was the weirdest one. That's golden.

Shame on you and your peers for inventing the technology to allow my marketing team to be able to do that sort of stuff. But that's the sort of stuff you see in our Sunday update, people love it. Matt and I's, all our LinkedIn, I mean, all of our social links

are in the show notes as well. Peter and Jonathan, if people wanted to learn more about your company, where should they go? They can find us on LinkedIn and they can find us on our website,

which is www.visco.no. Cause it's an origin. And guys, those links will be in the show notes as well. If you need help, your visualization work, or if you're sure everyone run ideas by them, both Peter and Jonathan will not try to sell you stuff.

They'll try to help you. I know that from personal experience. That's the whole reason they're on this show We would start our relationships where they actually try to help. But we get where we need to wind this thing down.

This is the part we have our LinkedIn fail or tip of the week. So gentlemen, do you have a LinkedIn tip or fail for our audience? Tip or and fail, do not as best as you possibly can

edit your LinkedIn posts after you they've gone out. I know from experience and research that they demote you algorithmically if you do that. And that's a good point. They try not to act like that's true. There's no evidence that LinkedIn is actually published

but many different groups of research didn't see and there's a direct correlation with it. So try to make a perfect post the first time. Triple check it. Make sure that everything you want in there is good and try as best you can not to edit it.

Also, if you can try to post a link, it actually is better to post the link in the comments section than it is to actually post in your post. LinkedIn does everything it can to keep you there. So just think about your posts to be in quality.

So you don't need to change it and you're not driving people outside of LinkedIn, you'll do much better. But they keep changing the algorithms. During the pandemic and right after pandemic, native videos, a video uploaded directly

LinkedIn did really well for us. Now it's the long form content, the old, old posts that we used to do back 10 years ago. Now that seems to be doing better. So thanks Jonathan for helping our audience try to figure it out.

They'll change the algorithm in a month. That's a good one. My only pro tip to LinkedIn, this was something I got told when I first moved to the States and started doing sales and I was fresh, like proper newbies.

So I was like, just taking all the tips that I could get is anytime you make a new contact, go through all of their contacts and just add them. You know, that's not necessarily a bad idea, but if you do it too much, it's kind of creepy. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a fine balance like, but I found that at least people who are relevant to the person you've contacted or connected to, I find that helped. I don't do it always. Sometimes I'm pretty bad at it myself,

but that was the first tip that I got told about LinkedIn, take it or leave it. That was a good one as well. Peter and Jonathan, thank you for coming on the show. We need to get you on some of our other shows and talk more about the tech side

and how you helped those engineers that we made fun of earlier, but we do need to get out of here. So remember folks, make a difference and not a sale. Thanks for listening to OGGN, the world's largest and most listened to podcast network

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