CRM. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Manage your all-field operations from anywhere with Rigor online or offline. Whether it's scheduling and dispatching jobs, tracking employee hours, managing equipment rentals, or inspections and maintenance, you can create, review, approve, and upload all types of field tickets and agreements securely from any device. Plus, you can generate invoices same day and run powerful operation manager dashboards on your desktop or phone. No paper, no errors, no headaches. Learn more at rigor.us. Link is in the show notes. Welcome to the Oil and Gas Sales and

Marketing podcast, where every week, your hosts, Mark LaCour and Matt Bertram share proven strategies and real-world tactics to help you connect with customers and close more deals. Let's do this. Hey, welcome back everybody. Matt, we got another review. It's a five-star masterclass in sales and marketing. This podcast must listen. I share with anyone I know that is working in the sales and marketing role in the oil and gas industry. The strategies for lead generations such as cold calling and reaching out to customers early in the morning and on Friday and Sunday afternoons

have helped me generate more opportunities in my current role. And it's funny, my organization just purchased Zoom Info, which has already generated multiple opportunities and saved me hours of work. Cannot wait to be part of the Insiders group. And this is from Brendan from the United States. What a great review, Brendan. I'm glad that you found this valuable. If you want to be like Brendan and get a shout out of the show, leave us a review. We love five stars. If you'd like to see some improvement, we'll take a four star and just let us know what we need to change. Matt, what's

our subject today? We're talking about CRMs. Oh, love-hate relationship in most industries, with sales people especially. You know, when I got started, Matt, the only CRM that was out there was Siebel. That's how old I am. I believe that's an Oracle product. I think Oracle eventually bought them. Now, though, you know, most people are familiar with Salesforce, which kind of owns, I think, a lot of the market share, especially enterprise with CRM. But there's other CRMs out there, Zoho and Sightley and HubSpot and PipeDrive and Zendesk and SugarCRM, blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah. And they all are there. Primarily, they're focused on helping leadership understand what's going on in the sales world as far as pipeline, pipeline growth, what deals are closing, what revenue. But if you think about it that way, Matt, it's almost designed backwards. Because it's designed for reporting to upper management, it's not useful to the frontline salespeople. So, they're forced to use it. They're told they have to do it and they're paid a salary to do stuff like this, do admin work. And so, because it's not valuable to the salespeople, they do the

least amount of work as possible, which means it's a bunch of really bad data. And when that data is moved over to the marketing side of house, it is literally utterly worthless. Okay, so I'm going to back up really quick. For anybody that doesn't know what CRM is, customer relationship management tool, okay, and I think everybody is familiar with that. I'll tell you, when I was in the pharma industry, there's a legal side to it too. So, they actually only gave you like 20 characters to put in there, because you can actually put too much data in there that it could get whatever it's called,

like, and it gets into a public domain, and then you're saying stuff about certain customers, right? So, it'd be liable if you weren't careful. Yeah, so it gets called into discovery or something like that, especially in pharma when they're looking at stuff or whatever. So, they didn't want you to put anything in there. And you're right, bad data, it is bad data out. And I think also there's not best practices training on CRMs. I don't think when you're asked to do a CRM, you're calling it busy work, right? And you don't understand maybe the bigger picture. And also,

some of the CRMs that initially came out didn't have a really good user interface. So, it was hard to use, you didn't like it, like, you know, now there's, I think, too many choices, right? But I just wanted to kind of back up and kind of outline what a CRM is meant for, Mark. So, like, in your mind, when you think about a CRM, a customer relationship management tool or platform, how do you view it? Like, what is your perspective from a sales standpoint? So, a good CRM should be a benefit to the salesperson. It should keep track of who you're

talking to, where the different deals are in whatever stages your companies have set up. And it can even automate things such as follow-up emails or even remind you, hey, you have it called Joe and you told Joe you'd call him next Wednesday. But in oil and gas, man, I just got to share a couple like funny stories that are true. I've seen this in my own eyes. So, first thing, one of the smaller oil-filled service companies, I'm not going to mention names, but they start with W, has six separate instances of sales horse running around the world and they don't talk to

each other, right? Which means that each one has its own different set of data and that would be an easy fix. If somebody would just combine them into one instance, I know another very, very large service company who in the fields in their CRM do not have a field for business unit. So, if you go in their CRM and do a query on Chevron, it will pull up all the Chevron contacts they've had over the last 20 years, except you have no idea if that person works in Chevron Pipeline, Chevron Exploration, Chevron Aviation, Chevron IT, and those are fundamental mistakes

that people make. I love the fact that you brought up the interface. Up until recently, a lot of these CRMs, you had to access from a real computer, from a laptop or a desktop. Yeah. Well, if you're a salesperson out in the field and you got to stop what you're doing and log in because there was no app, that isn't something that's helpful to you. So, the fact that a lot of them now have apps is great, but if you have a CRM in your company and you want it to be used properly, you have to make it valuable to your sales team. It has to be something that

your sales team goes, you know what, I couldn't perform at this level without my CRM. And I challenge everybody that's listening to see how many of their sales people would honestly say that about their existing tool. I would say it's probably less than 5% see the value and it brings benefits to the selling. So, from a sales point of view, it's a tool that you are forced to use. It's a tool that should be valuable to you to help you with your sales, but in this industry, it's really not as cumbersome and we need to change that. You initially talked a lot about

the reporting, right, to management or maybe that was prior to us jumping on the call. But essentially, it's really good reporting, right? Like if you have somebody on the field, if you have someone out in the field and, you know, the best practices, well, to enter in the information right after the call so you don't forget it on what you need to do. But I don't think people have been really trained well enough on how to use it when they start putting data in, right? And so then there's a bunch of or they're taking over a database that's not cleaned up.

And so then it's like this tool would, I think Mark almost every sales person knows that the CRM if it was used properly would help them sell better, like significantly better. But because of maybe internal or, you know, it's a legacy asset or they weren't trained how to do it or really, right? CRMs are good when you have multiple people logging into it. So if you're doing something, but nobody else is doing that, it makes that function of the CRM not really helpful. And then you stop doing it. And then, you know, it's kind of this downward spiral

of just not entering the data. And then when you have, you know, marketing coming in and saying, okay, let's segment out these past leads that didn't convert. And let's try to, you know, run some specific campaigns on them. You know, if the data is not in there correctly, you try to run the campaign potentially, and you're like, man, this is horrible. And then this doesn't work. But it's not because it didn't work. It's because the initial data you're starting with is bad, or it's old, right? Like old, that's the thing about emails, you can wash emails before you

send out emails to just make sure they're still current and active, everybody has an email for on average, like seven years, but maybe that's just like a direct to consumer campaign statistic. But in oil and gas, I think probably people are at a job, you know, at least three years, I would hope five to seven years when I was a recruiter, I was hoping three, but you know, it's like, let's pull them. But I would tell you, you know, making sure that data is up to date, right? Like, and if you're sending emails or marketing sending emails, and you get all these,

you know, fail to deliver, it's going to hurt your IP score or your domain score, right? Like, there's a lot of different nuances to this that we could go in. So I'm going to kind of get out of the trenches and give it back to you here. Yeah, well, so you did bring up something very important in that to upper management, CRM is vital. Once again, upper management is making business decision often involving big dollars on the reports of CRM is giving. And so one of the things that a lot of companies don't address is the cultural implications. And I'll give you a

personal example. When I worked at Bell South and our CRM, I knew after a little bit of time and experience that if I put any deal in our CRM over a million dollars, it would automatically be flagged and one of our executives would be tagged to it to work with me. Now, the truth is I did not want an executive messing up my deal. Quite honestly, I didn't want them talking to me. I didn't want them pressuring me. I did not want them out of the blue calling my client. I wanted them to leave the deal alone. I had to deal where it was supposed to be. So guess what that made me do?

That made me put a whole bunch of deals in a CRM for $900,000 because I knew the trigger was a million. And then oopsie, it came in at $1.6 million. Oh, I'm sorry. Right. And so that to your point, that was bad data that was reported up, but it was done that way because of the culture of what would happen if you put it in right. So for any companies out there from a leadership point of view, you need to sit down with your sales team, number one, understand what they do day to day, understand what the grind is like, what information is good for them, what information is a total

waste of time and then dedicate the resources. If your company has a CRM that's 10 or 15 years old, it needs to be cleaned up and there are companies that will come in and clean up all that data. There's databases out there where they compare email addresses if people moved or if they change your email address and then that starts making it. Skip tracing. Yeah. Skip tracing. Then that starts making it valuable. And then if your salespeople get benefit. So in the case I just said, if somebody would have told me, hey, if you want an executive involved, check this box, but put the real dollar

amount in there, I would have then put the real dollar amount in there, which means my upper management would have known exactly what the revenue that was coming in because culturally, they incentivize me to do the right thing. So it has to be a group effort where upper management can't be demanding, understanding that you have to ask the salespeople what's valuable to them, then work that backwards and get the reporting you want. And if you do all that, marketing is going to have a gold mine. You have accurate data with the right dollar amount, with the right sales

stage, you know who you're talking to and more importantly, you know the people that you shouldn't be talking to that are no longer there or change jobs or whatever. And it's such a great tool when it works right. Unfortunately, I would say I've only seen it work right maybe 10%, 10 or 15% of the time with all the companies I've talked to and I've got to see their CRM. It's a mess. And if they would just spend the time and effort to fix it, it would pay for itself 10 times over. Well, and I think it's really important to note that most CRMs do very similar functions. Okay.

Maybe they have different APIs to different tools or you have to build some custom tool to some legacy software you have. But most CRMs fundamentally do the same thing. It's all about getting everybody on the same page. But like if you just broke it down to say, all right, I'm going to use the CRM to flag these are people I should follow up with, right? Like lead scoring, I can go down a whole rabbit hole on marketing leads and rating leads. But like, okay, let's just say this is a good lead and this is not so good of a lead, right? So then you put them into that category.

And then you schedule a time to follow up with them and it integrates with your calendar, right? It sends a reminder. So that's like foundation level one, right? Foundation level two is you could write and I mean, we do a lot of this for companies will write drip emails, okay, prewritten canned drip emails for different target personas, right? So you're targeting people in the field, you're targeting executives, you know, whatever you're talking procurement, whatever it is. So we have an email that will work 85% of the time, right? And we work with sales

to vet it. And then guess what, we have different triggers or tags. So if you put this tag on that, you know, they're going to get a drip email, like whatever the sequence is, like tomorrow, in two days and five days and seven days, or whatever, right? And then you could have like a nurture drip or something like that, like if they don't convert. But if you go, okay, so again, we're building blocks on top of blocks, right? So you say, okay, I'm going to follow up with them in a month, right? Or whatever. And then you say, all right, I'm going to tag this. And then they're

going to get five emails from me, right, that are going to be personalized. Okay, maybe there's something about like someone award you one or some example of what you did or, you know, some interesting article that someone that's an SME at your company wrote, or whatever. And you drip that to them, right? So now I have five touch points before you call them again. How much does that warm up somebody? You know what I mean? Yeah, like that's so easy. Everybody could do that today. Like, I mean, that takes no effort. And it's built into your CRM. I don't care what it is. Now,

you may have that function cut off by whoever your administrators, but it's built in already. And then take what Matt said, and imagine putting that across your entire climate base. Imagine having 300, 400 prospects being nurtured by your CRM. And then you get pulled in when it's the point where they're starting to go deeper and they're actually going down a buy-in cycle. How much more commission would you make? And like Matt said, all that stuff is actually really, it's there and you can use it. But on the flip side of that, Matt, how many companies have you seen

misused that functionality and not understand that it's a nurturing process instead of an actual prospecting, right? Where they use CRM. I get these all the time. Where you see it on LinkedIn, where people are using CRMs to send in-mails on LinkedIn that basically suck. So the whole point I'm making is don't think the technologies could do the work for you. The technology is going to allow you to amplify your efforts. I think that that's a really big point. And I think most executives, and I could be wrong, and I may have a mower start here in a second. So I don't know if you're

going to be able to hear it. But here's what I'll tell you. You can't throw money at this. You can't just, I'm going to buy the most fanciest, most expensive CRM. And I've seen a lot of companies do that. And they pay for the Cadillac of CRMs. And then they use it to send like a once a month newsletter or something like that. And you can't just throw money at this. It actually takes sitting down and thought and designing whatever you're going to do. Then you can determine what platform it's in. But most platforms, there's very little difference on functionality. I think

it really comes down to like the support, the legacy assets that they're tied to. Like I'll give you an example, right? So I use some different kinds of document signing tools. And they have really great functionality and they're awesome. But guess what? And again, the data's not huge data. So I can't really speak to it. But if I send a docuSign, it gets opened faster. There's some trust associated with that. And so there are some big CRMs out there that people just gravitate to. But there's also some really small CRMs that are awesome. I think it's really, you should look at the

support team. Like when you're doing an implementation, how much are they going to support you? And I think that if you're looking at CRMs or you currently have a CRM, you need to really go, we need to sit down and figure out how to really use this and how our team's going to use it and then install that training in modules or in live trainings or whatever. But you can't just throw money at it. Like you can't just say, oh, we're going to pick the best CRM and it's just going to work better and we're going to make more money. To your point, Mark, there are outbound CRMs,

right? Like so I know a lot of companies that use two different CRMs, they use two different emails because one email is going to get flagged for spam or whatever, depending on how you're selling. And then they'll convert you over to their real email or they'll move you from this database to this database. You can even get CRMs that talk to each other. There's a lot of different ways to structure it. I think the best way to structure it is to figure out what you're currently selling, map out that process, and then figure out how to fix the leaky funnel. Like that's,

the other thing to consider is what are you selling and at what volume? So if you are a National All Well VARCO and you sell tens of thousands of items a day all over the world and you have hundreds and hundreds of salespeople, that is a different CRM requirement than somebody like us who only does maybe a dozen or 20 deals a year, right? We're not selling thousands people and we have a two-person sales team. So those are two different needs. If you're grabbing one of the big ones like Salesforce, so not only can they handle that volume that National All Well needs,

it can actually place the orders for them. So if somebody buys something, it talks to the warehouse software to make sure that order is packaged and sent to the right part of the world. The sales people over there can upload their expense receipts directly to the CRM, which means that National All Well's management can see their true cost of sale per item, even taking people out to lunch. That's an expensive proposition, right? That's a big enterprise level CRM with a lot of customization. You go to a smaller company, maybe you don't need all that. You look at your needs,

right? Yeah. You got to do a needs assessment and you got to do a use case assessment before you even get involved in it, right? Like now if you want to fix what you currently have, that's a different thing. But if you're like, you need to understand how your people are using it, what you really need it for, and how many bells and whistles do you need. And again, the basic box of the CRM is the same, right? Yeah. So let me take the audience through what it looks like when you have a good CRM that you've done your research, that it integrates

your existing systems. So I still sell, even though I own the company, I love selling. To me, selling is helping other people. To me, prospecting and cold calling is letting people know that there's options out there. I'm not intruding on them and I'm very respectful of how I do it. So when I get up in the morning, I look at my calendar. In my calendar is the people with their contact information that I need to reach out to. It has a short blurb of the last conversation we had so I can remember what we talked about. And also in my calendar,

if we have customers that are past payment due dates, it will put a note in my calendar, reach out to them, hey, you know, your past 90 days due. When I go out and I do prospecting and I meet a new potential client, when I enter their information, I do it for my cell phone. So the moment lunch is over, I take my cell phone and sit in my car. I just give some quick notes. Actually, today I just talk to my cell phone. I don't even have to type anything, right? That gets pushed into our CRM. If something would happen to me today, if I got hit by a bus, Matt could come in,

log into my CRM right now, see everybody I'm talking to, where they are. So we have five stages in our sales process, where they are in the five stages, and also see in the calendar who he needs to talk to next. And if somebody hasn't paid their bill, he's prompted to reach out to them friendly to say, hey, you know, this invoice might be sitting on your desk. Imagine from a sales person point of view, that was your day. Now we're lucky here and that we're small and I own the company and I can do whatever the hell I want as far as buying technology. And I do realize that if

you work for a larger company, you have to make do with what they have. But I'm telling you, if you're a sales team and your CRM doesn't help you, get together, get with your management and explain to them literally what's really going on and be honest saying, look, this thing sucks. It takes three hours a week, which takes away from my selling time. So me and the other 300 sales people only put the minimum amount of information in there, which I know is giving you bad reporting, which I don't think anybody wants. And I'm telling you, once management understands that

they'll work with you, they may not make it a bed of roses, but they will work you to help get things right. Because when CRM is done well, it is an amazing benefit to a sales person. So what I think we should save for our insider group, okay, is I'll give you a little bit of taste of what an advanced CRM marketing side setup would look like. And then we can really go into details in the insider group. But so I was telling you the foundation side of it, right? So, okay, setting up the calendars, you got lead scoring, you got triggers, okay, like as you start to build

this at the top end of this, okay, you have these custom drips built out, right? You can tie it to certain pages. And if that IP address hits it, it's hash matches, what's in the database, and then it sends them an automatic drip, okay, that oh, you've checked this out, you're interested in this, boom, let's start that conversation. Then you can start tying that in to the social selling components, right? It's really about creating this feedback loop, okay? And you can feed that data and your customer data into, well, Facebook or different platforms or LinkedIn or what have you,

and you can create lookalike audiences, you can do retargeting, you know, they have like everybody is afraid to like upload their data and certainly maybe some companies have to go through legal or whatever, they have massively more data than you and they're focused on something separate. What it does is it takes your customer list and it matches, if it matches what they currently have, so what someone currently used to set up. So really, if you have a lot of business emails, it might not work as well as you get those personal emails, right? And that's a whole

another debate, right, Mark? When a lead comes in and you see it's a personal email versus a work email, people often discard the personal email because, oh, it's not a real company, right? But how many, I mean, I don't know, I have my work email tied to my LinkedIn, right? I have some other emails associated with it, but on other platforms, I have my personal email in there, right? Yeah, me too. And so, you know, if an ad comes up, I click on an ad, I fill out a form, whatever, you're not going to know that, you're going to have my full name, you can, okay, fine,

go look me up. And there are dashboards, okay, Mark, like from a sales standpoint that when a call comes in, you have it tied to your CRM, what pulls up is their social profiles, like in a dashboard, the last couple of conversations that you've had with them, like, you can tie together so much information, and you can do so much more, right? And you can be so much more effective, like I know, oh, a customer calls or, you know, a prospect calls, a lot of people are like, scrambling for their notes, they can't remember, whatever. Imagine if that call came in, or came

through, and you have your laptop with you, okay, if you're in the field, maybe it's a little bit different, but, and I haven't worked with apps that do this, but I'm sure there are. And essentially, it comes up all their information, their social profiles, their last posts, the last notes you had with them, any information that the company has on like general stuff, so you're like, you know, you have their general, like their kids or where they went to school or like whatever, you can have a much better conversation with that person with all that information in your

fingertips. And then also, you can figure out, like, what are the typical paths that they convert? And through little triggers, put them on that path to create those touchpoints. Really, what I'm seeing in a lot of data on the paid ad side is you have to get market saturation of like 10, 15 times before you start really getting conversions. So we're having a different conversation, maybe about brand awareness or selling things online, but like a lot of these automated systems online, which we've just switched over to where you can buy stuff directly on OGGN.com, right?

And if you think about the sales process, more and more of the sales process is moving online. People are coming all the way through the buying cycle by before they pick up the phone. So the way people are selling and way people are using the internet is completely different. You're not just checking the internet, oh, they're a real company, whatever. And then you call and do all the business on the phone. They want to find out all the information they want to do their research, and they want to know what that experience is going to be like on the other end of it.

And they're going to keep going through that sales funnel if you build it for them, right? So what I think marketing can do more than anything else is it can help salespeople build their pipeline without them having to be on the phone with one prospect at a time. They can more manage the flow of what's going on. And that's where I think this merger comes in. And that's where I think you can really leverage marketing because it's one to many versus one to one. And I mean, you can't beat that. No. And the other thing is a lot of people,

especially older salespeople, go, it's not personal. Let me ask you this about being personal. How cool would it be when you knew that when it was one of your bigger clients' birthdays and you personally shot them a note or text them or call them to the happy birthday, right? That is one of the things that CRM is really, really good at. You don't have to remember everybody, all your clients' birthdays. So it's stuff like that. It's still, it can be still very personal. It just amplifies everything. I do think it's cool you brought up what we did. So if you

haven't been to the OGGN website recently, go check it out. Literally everything that we sell, you can now buy online without talking to a salesperson. Not sure why you wouldn't want to talk to me, but if for some reason you don't want to talk to me or one of our other salespeople, you can buy it online. And yes, I know when people are coming in. I know when they look at stuff. I know if they put stuff in their carts and they abandon it, right? All that information is just to help us be a better company to make sure we meet our customers' needs. So if we can do it,

anybody can do it. Matt, we're getting close to winding down time here. Like always, I do want to mention something though. We've listened to all of you. Thank you for all your feedback, for the reviews, for people reaching out to me. What we're going to do is we're going to have a series starting next week. And we're going to go through a list of things that are very tactical, that are very important for you. So we're going to have a series. Each one's going to be on different subjects. So analytics, listening tools, keyword research, and how to rank in Google,

how to leverage paid social media, email automation, influence marketing, PR. So stay tuned for that series. Also, we've had some other changes. So we now have two newsletters. Both of them, the links are in the show notes. So each Sunday, we have the Sunday update, which is not a newsletter. It's literally just an update. We do not scrape anything off the internet and throw it a newsletter. We think that's a waste of your time and our time. This Sunday update is behind the scenes of your favorite podcasters. It's real industry insights from some of the

big data companies that really will quickly get you ready for your next work week. We have a bunch of discounts, everything from exotic hunting, to wearable devices, to HUS detectors. That links in the show notes. And then we've refreshed All In Gas events newsletter. You're used to getting that from MotelPoint. Now it's coming from OGGN. It's been refreshed. Matt, I did one of the biggest mistakes that you're not supposed to do in marketing in that I have not refreshed that newsletter in 11 years. Like it looked like it was from 1987. And I got more feedback that it's

easier to read, which it's been needing to be done. So both those links are in the show notes. Also, Matt and I's social links are also in the show notes. Our insiders group that Matt mentioned and then our reviewer, Brendan mentioned, is in the works. We thought we would have it done by now, but we'd rather do it right. So it's going to take us a little bit longer. It'll be 2024 before we launch that. And then this is the point where we do a LinkedIn fail or tip of the week, which, Matt, I get a lot of feedback. People love this little segment of the show. Do you have a tip

or fail of the week? I have not been on LinkedIn much recently. Okay. So I have a tip. So we actually had a really good videographer reach out to us. Basically, he called call me and he did such a horrible job of it that I stopped him and I coached him how he should have called call me. And he ended up coming to our industry mixer last week here in Houston. He shot video for us for free. What he's trying to do is show me that he can do good work. And in return, he wants me to expose him to the oil and gas industry, right? Which is a very fair dream. And he did fantastic

work. Matt, his LinkedIn profile did not mention he was a videographer. So people, make sure that whatever you're doing now for a living is updated on LinkedIn. Because if I would not have talked to him on the phone, when he shot me the email and I looked at his LinkedIn profile and it did save as a videographer, I would have automatically assumed it was some type of scam. So just make sure you update your LinkedIn profile when you change jobs. Yeah. So I think that that's a super good point, Mark, because that's certainly, that's how I use LinkedIn a lot. Someone emails me or

someone calls me or someone gets back on my calendar, right? The first thing I'm doing is I'm going to look at their LinkedIn. And if they're at a different company or they haven't updated in a couple of years or it's not accurate, it makes me not as sure about this conversation that's coming up, right? And so you need to keep it updated for sure. Hey, Matt, here's a good question that we'll get out of here. What do you think about the longevity of LinkedIn pictures? So I have a female friend of mine whose LinkedIn picture is so old, you can't even recognize her. So that

is not helpful. But do you think you need to update your picture every year, every couple of years? Like, what's your gut feel about? Well, you know, I think your LinkedIn represents how you do business, right? And so I've seen a lot of people putting like personal pictures, then with dogs, skiing, whatever, if that is your personal persona of how you do business, then, you know, you do that. I do think that, you know, if your pictures from 20 years ago, and I knew some recruiting people that did that, it's confusing more than anything else, right?

Like, so I don't know if it's, you have to update it every year, every quarter or whatever. I think that there's value in a consistent look that you look the same, like if you wear a bow tie in your picture, like when they meet you in person, you wear a bow tie. I know a couple of people that do that, they brand themselves. I know a guy that wears a red hat all the time, and, you know, he always wears a red hat in his pictures, red hat and whatever. I think it's about if you cut your hair, right? Like I used to have long hair. You need to update the photo.

Does that make sense? You need to, you need to look like when you meet that person, like what you're trying to do is map what's happening digitally to what's happening in the real world. So if your picture, if you haven't, you know, changed in three years, fine, like keep the picture if you like the picture, but if you substantially change and people are not going to recognize you, I think that that's really the hot button for me is if I can't recognize you when I look at your picture, like if I'm in a room, I'm like, I don't know that person,

I'm going to look on LinkedIn, I'm going to meet them for a meeting, and then they look completely different, right? Like that's where I think gets out of hand. That's always great advice. All right, Matt, let's get out of here. Remember, everybody, make a difference and not a sale. Check us out next week for another enriching and cheeky episode of Oil and Gas Sales and Marketing podcast, a production of the Oil and Gas Global Network. Learn more at OGGN.com.